Here was a recent conversation between a friend of mine and me on Facebook. I thought I would post it here as it was very thought provoking.
Marsha Iddings "It wasn't a potential atonement actuated by the sinner, it was an actual atonement initiated by the Savior." - J MacArthur
I've asked many a folk about this verse. What is "the gift"? Is it (a) salvation or (b) faith? Calvinists answer that it is the faith. Frankly, I do not know, having wrestled with this for years. One of the points of the verse is that boasting is not allowed, regardless of how the question is qualified. 1st Cor 1:29-31 also makes this clear, that those who glory ought to glory in the Lord.
It does puzzle me that if it is "faith" that is the gift, then why all the scriptural commands to obey, to exercise faith? Clearly I have a role to play, which wouldn't be the case if I already have the faith and am just believing because it is "given" to me to do so.
Again, I am not ready to be dogmatic on this point. I join my New Testament brother and often cry, "Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief".
It does puzzle me that if it is "faith" that is the gift, then why all the scriptural commands to obey, to exercise faith? Clearly I have a role to play, which wouldn't be the case if I already have the faith and am just believing because it is "given" to me to do so.
Again, I am not ready to be dogmatic on this point. I join my New Testament brother and often cry, "Lord, I believe, help thou my unbelief".
Marsha
I agree it's a tough thing to reconcile. Calvinists say that God gives us faith to believe, that salvation is all of Him including the faith yet the Bible also commands us to believe. They say it is a tension in Scripture...it's all a work of... See More God but we will FEEL like we are doing all the work.
Tonight we read a verse in family devotions in Acts that said, Ac 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
It says that God granted repentance to the Gentiles, which leads me to wonder if this means that God gave them the faith to repent and believe. Makes it sound like a person isn't able to have faith to repent and believe unless God grants it to them.
This is just me rambling along with my thoughts. I don't know if am making any sense or not.
Further Comments from me not on Facebook:
Below in blue I've listed some of the verses that sit on either side of the balance of salvation. In blue are verses that indicate that salvation is all of God, that He chooses whom He will save and they will be saved.
Further down I've listed in purple verses that are on the other side of the balance that show we have responsiblity to respond.
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
The Bible also indicates that we have a role to play, responsibility.....
Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 12:36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
Acts 19:4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Conclusion:
It is obvious from Scripture that God has chosen whom He will save, but it is equally obvious that we have a responsibility, a role to play in responding to Him.
I will be honest and say that I don't understand it. It blows my mind a bit. All I can say is that it seems like there is a balance.
On the one hand you have those who would say we have no responsibility, we can just lay back and God will save who He plans to save. If He is going to save me, then He will do it. I can't do anything for or against it. So they float merrily along waiting for lightening to strike them.
Others would say we don't need to preach the God's Word or evangelize, we can just lay back let Him do what He is going to do since God has already chosen whom He will save.
Then you have the other side of the balance where salvation becomes the responsibility of man. It is all by man's choice that He is saved or not saved. It is all in saying "The Sinner's Prayer" that a person is saved, which leads to door to door evangelism by some groups that figuratively beat people over the head with a "gospel 2 x 4" and refuse to leave the door step until they have gotten them to repeat the sinners prayer. Then they go to church the next Sunday and boast about how many people they got saved the previous week. ( am not exaggerating here. I used to be a member of a church that did this) We rarely saw any fruit from this, yet they prided themselves on how many people got saved each week.
Or there are those on this side of the balance who think that if they walked the isle, said the prayer, they are saved, yet there is never any fruit to be seen in their lives. Yet they are assured by well-meaning pastors, friends and family that they are saved because they did these things.
So there is a critical balance to be had. Hard to understand how God works, but it is clear to me that God chooses whom He will save and He works through those He saves while at the same time we have responsibility to respond to Him. The verse below so beautifully illustrates the two sides of the balance. On one side we are commanded to "work out your own salvation" but on the other side of the balance, it says, "it is God who works in you...".
Philippians 2:12-13 ¶ Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Tonight we read a verse in family devotions in Acts that said, Ac 11:18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life."
It says that God granted repentance to the Gentiles, which leads me to wonder if this means that God gave them the faith to repent and believe. Makes it sound like a person isn't able to have faith to repent and believe unless God grants it to them.
This is just me rambling along with my thoughts. I don't know if am making any sense or not.
Further Comments from me not on Facebook:
Below in blue I've listed some of the verses that sit on either side of the balance of salvation. In blue are verses that indicate that salvation is all of God, that He chooses whom He will save and they will be saved.
Further down I've listed in purple verses that are on the other side of the balance that show we have responsiblity to respond.
John 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.
And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 ¶ What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Eph 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.
The Bible also indicates that we have a role to play, responsibility.....
Mark 1:15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."
John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 12:36 "While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
Acts 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him.
36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?"
37 Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
Acts 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house.
Acts 19:4 Then Paul said, "John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Conclusion:
It is obvious from Scripture that God has chosen whom He will save, but it is equally obvious that we have a responsibility, a role to play in responding to Him.
I will be honest and say that I don't understand it. It blows my mind a bit. All I can say is that it seems like there is a balance.
On the one hand you have those who would say we have no responsibility, we can just lay back and God will save who He plans to save. If He is going to save me, then He will do it. I can't do anything for or against it. So they float merrily along waiting for lightening to strike them.
Others would say we don't need to preach the God's Word or evangelize, we can just lay back let Him do what He is going to do since God has already chosen whom He will save.
Then you have the other side of the balance where salvation becomes the responsibility of man. It is all by man's choice that He is saved or not saved. It is all in saying "The Sinner's Prayer" that a person is saved, which leads to door to door evangelism by some groups that figuratively beat people over the head with a "gospel 2 x 4" and refuse to leave the door step until they have gotten them to repeat the sinners prayer. Then they go to church the next Sunday and boast about how many people they got saved the previous week. ( am not exaggerating here. I used to be a member of a church that did this) We rarely saw any fruit from this, yet they prided themselves on how many people got saved each week.
Or there are those on this side of the balance who think that if they walked the isle, said the prayer, they are saved, yet there is never any fruit to be seen in their lives. Yet they are assured by well-meaning pastors, friends and family that they are saved because they did these things.
So there is a critical balance to be had. Hard to understand how God works, but it is clear to me that God chooses whom He will save and He works through those He saves while at the same time we have responsibility to respond to Him. The verse below so beautifully illustrates the two sides of the balance. On one side we are commanded to "work out your own salvation" but on the other side of the balance, it says, "it is God who works in you...".
Philippians 2:12-13 ¶ Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
The verse above refers more to once a person is saved.
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
We see both God's choosing and man's choice in this verse---both sides of the balance. I quote Craig Brown in "The Five Dilemmas of Calvinism".
"All that the Father gives" refers to those elect individuals whom God has chosen from the foundation of the world to believe in Him. "Will come to me" means that, sometime in their lives, those elect individuals will choose to believe in Christ as their Savior and their Lord. "And whoever comes to me" means that the invitation is open to anyone to believe in Christ. "I will never cast out" means that anyone who does come to Christ will be saved."
2 comments:
When you talk about God giving faith as a gift, there are a couple of ways to take this.
1. Is it that only those who are given faith will be saved? From this, does it follow that all who finish their life lost were never given faith? Or
2. is it that all men are given a measure of faith and some exercise it to salvation and others refuse to exercise it and end up in outer darkness?
Position #2 seems rather harsh. It conveys the notion that God created billions of people, knowing that the vast majority He would consign to outer darkness, having pre-determined to never give them faith to believe.
While #1 seems more palatable, I don’t want to be found judging scripture according to my sense of fairness. Yet I would struggle to understand what purpose it would serve for God to knowingly create people only to cast them out categorically. If they have an opportunity, then we can understand that darkness is their choice, but if they are precluded from choosing because they were not afforded faith, this seems to serve no purpose.
Don,
I appreciate your thoughts and questions. I wrestle with these questions as well. I don't pretend to understand it all. Who can know the mind of God? We'd be gods ourselves if we understood it all.
I have a feeling there will be people from both sides of the issue who will be in heaven. :-)
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